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August 13, 2007

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rdknyvr

Moderator, the question from Chuck Lia following on the question from Tex is likely one of those 'sensitive' questions that should be referred to a board member for consideration, even if they decline to provide a full answer at this point. My own thought, without having any more inside info than what I read at OZ, is that with the training systems now going through the Quixtar Accrediation process (btw, can you confirm this?), the training landscape -- including tools and pricing -- will look somewhat different by this fall, especially with Quixtar U coming online. So Tex's question, which has been burning holes in his pockets (and not a few others, too) may need to be put on ice (puns intended) for a bit more until all the changes sort out...

It's interesting to now find out what System Diamonds were in his immediate upline... explains VOLUMES about the intensity of his posts for the past many months elsewhere :)

[Moderator: There's a reason why you won't see Board members participating much online, which is the same reason the terminated IBOs don't participate much online. It's called "litigation." It's one thing to quote from a legal complaint or judgment, that's considered "safe" communication, but the lawyers don't like their client/potential witnesses to say a lot and they want to screen what they do say. I'm not saying Board members won't post messages here -- I believe some will -- only that they have to be careful and prudent. And remember, just because Board leadership isn't writing here all the time doesn't mean that they're not VERY busy offline working on the multiple issues that have come up in recent weeks. ]

Chuck Lia

Moderator,

I understand the post by "rdknyvr" and I also understand your response to his post. That being said, the initial "General" post on this IBOAI blog was that the Board was interested in blogging with IBOs about topics and issues in the business. If certain topics were not going to be on the table for the reasons you mentioned to "rdknyvr," that should have been stated upfront so that it wouldn't look like certain topics and issues were being avoided. Tex has asked for clarification on tool related issues dozens of times on various company related blogs for months and IMHO hasn't been given a remotely reasonable response by anyone to date (Kia thankfully has posted a few introductory thoughts, but nothing in real depth). The company's, and now the IBOAI Board's, lack of response on tool related issues makes it appear as if Tex is being unreasonable, when in fact a few to the point responses and a little meaningful dialogue would likely alleviate much of the combative dynamic. So if tool related issues are off the table for now, say so now and tell us the exact reasons why that is the case (litigation or whatever it may be), and then let us (and you) move on to other issues instead of wasting our time asking for clarification on tools and tool systems which won't be forthcoming.

Chuck

[Moderator's Note: We're trying to get Board consensus on responses about this and other topics, Chuck. The delay is, in fact, the press of legal matters, but we understand why you, Tex and others want answers to some very good questions.]

amazed

In the old days, when my mother was an Amway Distributor, I sold enough products door-to-door to earn a 1500 pin. I was around 12 years old then and the products were priced to sell.
I signed up as an adult in 1991 and I built an organization fast enough to earn a 1000 pin in my first month, primarily with family and close friends who knew me well. I was not successful in registering people that did not know me well, which speaks of the opportunity being less trusted than I am.
After some time, my upline began promoting to not speak of Amway and I "backed off" as I could not be less than honest with people. Then my upline emerald noticed some growth in my family organization and sent the less-than-honest team to coach them. That organization fell apart quickly and I ended up with a leg that had three 1000 pins doing about 200 PV total! Obviously it was time to put an end to it, so I informed what was left of my team, and my upline that I was done and did not renew.
I still believed in the business model and signed up under a different system (Britt instead of Yager), but I did notice anything better than the Yager system so I never showed their plan and did not renew.
A year later I ran into my original emerald and signed up again; I also found that almost everyone that was between us before was no longer in the business anyway. This was just before the Quixtar launch and I started to build again. At no fault of either Quixtar or my upline, I went through a divorce and stopped building. Personal challenges are not positive in a relationship business.
So, I signed up again just about a week ago with the same group under the TEAM system because of the honesty and logical approach of the TEAM; including promoting to NOT buy more than 50PV of products when you start, and until the bonuses make other items a better deal!
Less than a week later, the people that were being honest are kicked out of Quixtar, including the Chairman of the Legal and Ethics committee as well as the founders of TEAM. Then Quixtar sends out a notice that has blatant lies in it about the TEAM leadership. To top that off, Quixtar halts the case discounts and RAISES shipping costs, after being informed that the prices are already non-competitive. You say that you want to change things one at a time, but Quixtar is changing them, the other way, by the dozens! That is not progress!

Above and beyond all of that, Quixtar says that my personal referalls are not my referrals, but theirs. So, exactly what is Quixtar doing for me? Raising prices, stealing my referrals, keping me from learning from my leaders, and changing their name to a name that has not been welcomed in over 20 years as a good opportunity.

Tex

I placed the following comments on the Amway Media blog, and would like to get the Board's input on these ideas:

Corp (please respond),

I understand why you got rid of case pricing, it wasn't being used enough. However, I wish you didn't get rid of the case ordering, but as I suggested previously, had lowered the prices to make case orders more attractive. Big mistake, in my opinion, if you are trying to lower prices. This amounts to a price increase for me.

Your recent announcement says the PV/BV ratios and most of the prices are being maintained for next year, but is the PV/BV LEVEL also being maintained, increased, or decreased?

I understand the shipping prices, gas prices have gone way up.

If one of my IBO's doesn't follow the rules, I as a Platinum shouldn't be punished for their action. In the case of stacking, if I trained them properly how to stack properly, and they go off and do it incorrectly, I shouldn't be punished, they should. You have swung the pendulum way too far in the other direction.

Utah

To Quixtar/Amway...
Re: the current Junior High age actions of both sides..

As an IBO for over 16 years, I am amazed at the actions of both sides. (Team vs Quixtar/Amway)

1. Altcor has decided to change Quixtar to Amway. I haven't even officially been told. I saw a comment at the IBO association website a week or so ago, or I wouldn't have known.

All I can find now is:
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6652689
or the Businesswire.com note of a changing brand.

When I was a distributor of Amway for 8 years, I was given the choice to sign up as an IBO of quixtar. I was told that I could stay as a distributor of Amway, I decided not to , and after 2 years I wouldn't have had the choice, you took it away. If you gave me the choice right now, I would stay with Quixtar, as long as I could get SA8, Nutralite, etc. I would like the choice to stay with Quixtar. I don't want to go back to being called part of Amway.

2. The prices of Double X are too high. I am glad you lowered the Daily prices, but when you changed the formula for Double X, my wife couldn't take it anymore (won't stay down), and other IBO's or customers stopped using it. I like it, and use it myself.

I have tried over the last 16 years to retail some products. Hasn't really worked well. My mother in law and my sister in law will buy, but that is about it. The retail prices are too high.

3. Having seen the BSM from Internet Services, Legacy Group, and Team, I would say the Team system is more stable and makes more sense. I don't know what is wrong with their system, but it is better than anything Dexter Yager had.

4. I can't believe you terminated Randy Haugen and Don Wilson. No chance to reverse that? Real smart?

5. The lawsuit from Team is poorly written, with a bad attitude.

6. The press releases from the IBO association and the Corporation are poorly written with a bad attitude.

7. We need to get both sides in a room and work this out - Or was that what went wrong this month. If 1/3 or more of the board thought Quixtar should stay quixtar and the corporation had decided to change it anyway, I guess Quixtar forgot that the American Way Assoc. was created before there was a product. Quixtar needs to listen to the board, or at least listen to us as IBO's.

8. XS has fake sugar - my wife can't handle it, and I don't use caffeine. I guess you can't make one with real sugar without the caffeine?

9. It would real easy before the end of this month to really fix this Team vs Amway problem. Give all IBO's the choice to stay with Quixtar or go back to Amway like you did in 1999. I would think changing prices would be easy, just adjust the PV/BV also so it works.

With a few phone calls and compromising all the suits could be dropped. Perhaps Rich Devos Sr. should be invited to sit in the meeting, or doesn't he know what Quixtar is doing?

IBO with Quixtar

Tex

Utah,

It's not as simple as you are representing.

The reasons Quixtar gave to the TEAM IBO's for getting terminated had NOTHING to do with the name change.

There were 3 reasons given, and none of them had anything to do with the name change.

The reasons the TEAM IBO's gave for resigning (I still don't which way it happened, terminated or resigned, but the same net result), prices are too high, also had NOTHING to do with the name change.

In fact, one of the reasons Quixtar gave was "improper positioning of the business", which I believe in English means, for example, the TEAM opens never spoke the word Quixtar and made it sound as if TEAM did all the things Quixtar actually does. So why would they have an issue with Amway, they never mention the company name?

Caroline

I just came accross, it appears another suspended IBOAI board member, Bill Newton's email to everyone.

He too claims the board
"4. Quixtar cancelled their contract with the IBOAI board
Effective November then they want to go month to month. This action
came after the board sent them a letter that states we are 100% not in agreement on the Amway business change. So if the board makes Quixtar feel good they may continue month to month."

We always were told and told people about how the Nutrilite crash would never re-happen because we were different and had a board. Even got the compensation plan "given" to us.

Now I find it all lies and what I have been telling people in good faith was built on sand. I am very disappointed.

Thanks Johnathan for your work here. Best of luck to you and thanks for trying to answer as dutifully the many messages we shoot at you. I know what I will do come September first.

Utah

Tex,
As you saw, the questions were mainly to the corporation. I was told by email, that any comments to Quixtar should go on this blog.

That being said, the point of the whole problem is the transistion. While there have been concerns about pricing, that alone would not have caused This.

The simple solution would be: Have current IBO's pick to stay with Quixtar or go back to Amway - just like they did in 1999.

The corporation is going to make a bunch of changes in the next 18 to 24 months, they have not told the IBO's generally what they are, and they changed the name without telling us. I only know a few of the changes that are posted on Altico's website blog.

Team has said they felt the changes would make it harder to build the business than what it is now. These are people that sat on the board.

The corporation is saying on the adatudes website blog:

...You are currently in the Quixtar business and will be until we make significant changes to all aspects of the business, which we anticipate will be 18-24 months. -- RL

and

..This is why the new Quixtar Business Opportunity Brochure (QBOB) that all new prospects will be required to receive beginning in September includes a disclosure that they are joining Quixtar today but that, after unprecedented changes to our business, a rebranding will occur to align ur North America business with the global Amway business. RL

End of quotes.

I do care about the name of the business and if I am expected to decide what I am doing, it would be nice to find out what changes are proposed.

Board Voice

ABOUT TOOLS -- To Chuck, Tex and others who have comment on the "tools" business....

Two oars in the water. If one is over used it creates a lack of balance in the business. BSM's play a vital role but should not be the sole role in building a solid profitable and professional business. You need both oars in the water should your goal require training and knowledge to achieve it.

Everyone should ask themselves: did I get my money's worth when purchasing BSM's? BSM's should provide value to assist the IBO to move forward with the business and building themselves as they build the business.

Tex

Utah,

Quixtar/Amway/Alticor has their own blogs. This one is for the IBOAI Board. Who sent you the e-mail?

Totally different scenarios between 1999 and 2007. In 1999, a different business model on the internet was being created. Now, they want to have a single, world-wide name to communicate the business opportunity, as the rest of the world is now largely on the internet as well.

I agree it would be good to know what changes are planned, even if they are general in nature and could possibly change over the 2 year time period. Beth has committed to updates as they become available, and hopefully the IBOAI Board will use this blog to open up the discussion to allow the IBO's to participate in the discussion. It is a great opportunity to show the IBO's the Board is aware/engaged in the process, AND interested in the needs of the IBO's and not just their own interests, which can be very different than the IBO's.

We do know some of the changes, have you read the various adatudes blogs? I think the corp could do a better job of summarizing some of the blog information, so new blog users don't have to "hunt and peck" for the information they are looking for, and have suggested this to the corp in the past.

TEAM's main gripe was high product costs. If the name change was a major issue, they should have clearly stated so.

The reason the changes will make it harder, is because changing back to the Amway name will REQUIRE substantial changes in the tool pricing and profit disclosure. Therefore, the business WILL be harder (less profit) for the upline (especially the Board members, who have the most income to lose), but get easier for the typical IBO. Also, we should have pricing improvements, the availability of sales training, etc.

I care more about the changes than the name. If the opportunity is good and honest, I don't care about the people who get hung up on a name. If they want to be that shallow, they deserve to be a character on "Seinfeld".

Chuck Lia

To "Board Voice",

I think everyone understands the "two oars in the water" example and the importance of maintaining a balanced view, both in theory and practice, toward the use of tools in the business. The bigger issue it seems to me is whether, in light of the inherent conflict of interest that occurs when an IBO recommends tools to other IBOs on which he earns royalties (and the fact that most new IBOs do not have enough discernment early in the business to determine if they "received the value they paid for"), there should be greater disclosure regarding the financial aspects of the income from the tools that are being promoted to the new IBO, tools that also generate income (substantial income for some) to the IBOs recommending their purchase.

I've used this example before. In California a few years ago they restricted a doctor's ability to send lab work from his patients to any lab in which the doctor had an ownership interest. The reason was simple: 1) Insurance billing had shown that the charges for lab work from the doctor to labs in which he had an ownership interest consistently exceeded the lab fees charged at non-doctor owned labs; and 2) the doctor's patients were not aware of the doctor's financial ownership and income interest in the lab, nor of the higher prices for lab tests they were paying. Now if the patient's lab work revealed he was a diabetic you might say he "received value for his money." However, that is only one aspect of the story. Another aspect is that he could have received the same lab result elsewhere at less cost given that option, as well as lower costs on further medical tests down the road. Unfortunately, a new IBO only has one option for tools and training, his upline.

Maybe I'm simple minded. I keep wondering why it is so difficult for systems to disclose to the all their IBO "partners" using their support system the basic dynamics of the system's tool income disbursements, particularly in light of the trust-based, mentoring, and relational dynamics between IBOs in the business. I think that if it was disclosed that a Platinum receives 'A' dollars, an Emerald 'B' dollars, and a Diamond 'C' dollars on a CD or download, and 'X' dollars, 'Y' dollars, and 'Z' dollars respectfully when speaking at weekends, it would go along way in alleviating the opportunity for deception and abuse. Value received from tools is, as you said, a critical component to consider. But it is just one aspect of the story on tools, certainly not the whole story, nor is it the only factor to be considered in determining whether or not a tool or a function was priced appropriately. Perhaps if a few tool systems published the full financial dynamics of their tools and functions we could find out first hand how IBOs view the value of the tools they purchase. But as I have also said before, I won't hold my breath on that one.

I have no problem at all with earning income on tools, only with not disclosing how tool income is earned and disbursed in light of the inherent conflict of interest created when an IBO earning an override on a downline IBO, recommends tools on which he earns also earns income, without the dynamics of the tool income being revealed. The downline IBO knows exactly how much his upline earns on his Quixtar business because he has seen the Quixtar compensation plan. Not so with tools. With full disclosure my only comment on tools would be, "Go for it! Earn as much as you can."

Chuck

Tex

Board Voice,

That's exactly my point.

I am not advocating getting rid of tools, but tool profit disclosure. As it is now, there is only one oar in the water, as we know far more about how much an average Platinum and above makes via Quixtar than the average Platinum and above income from the tools.

We do know many/most Emeralds and above make more, and many of them MUCH more, from tools than Quixtar. The IBO's formerly known as TEAM expected to make more on tools at and above the Platinum level.

The net result of this is it is difficult for an IBO to get to a net profit below the Platinum level. If you want to advocate more retail to pay for the system tools, then make sure you tell the prospects this little tidbit while showing the plan. It will probably go over like a lead balloon.

We are independent contractors for Quixtar, YOU claim us to be your "teammates" and "business partners". What kind of a teammate or business partner does not disclose these fundamental facts?

I suggest you read/listen to the 1983 "Directly Speaking" recordings again, because the tail is wagging the dog, and has been for at least a quarter of a century.

Can't you see we have been going around in circles with no net growth of Quixtar for over a decade? Need a source for that information? Try Doug DeVos.

The reason for this is the internet has shined a bright light on the tool profits, and if you don't put the oar back in the water, the boat going around in circles will develop a leak and sink.

Want to get rid of the critics? Get honest.

I think this clearly answers the question whether the tools are worth the cost. The answer is "NO".

[Moderator: Tex, just a few additional comments. We respectfully disagree that only one oar is in the water inasmuch as only some of the LOAs and some of the businesses have been imbalanced, NOT all of them. And while -- outside of the world of Quixtar and IBOS -- many, many private businesses choose to associate with each other, they don't share financial information with each other. That simply is NOT common practice in the for-profit world. Finally, and I don't think you're trying to be difficult, but we don't think that a 1983 recording should be presented as evidence in a 2007 situation. That's quarter-century old information. Today's issues requires today's solutions and we think the Global Business Transformation plans announced by Quixtar have the intent of making some much-needed changes. And the IBOAI will be right in there carrying your opinions, and the opinions of other IBOs, to Quixtar, about what we like or what might be improved about the Business Transformation plans.]

Utah

Moderator:
"...Today's issues requires today's solutions and we think the Global Business Transformation plans announced by Quixtar have the intent of making some much-needed changes. And the IBOAI will be right in there carrying your opinions, and the opinions of other IBOs, to Quixtar, about what we like or what might be improved about the Business Transformation plans."

Where did I miss my copy of the Global Business Transformation plans?
I can see a few bonuses, but without this Team situation, I would still not know what new IBO's will be told next month, that Quixtar is becoming Amway. Please post a link or tell me where I can get this press release. I have not found it.

[Moderator: Here's a couple of links about the Business Transformation:

http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/07/03/Business-Transformation.aspx

http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/07/05/Clarification-to-Transformation-Post.aspx ]

Chuck Lia

The Moderator said:

"We don't think that a 1983 recording should be presented as evidence in a 2007 situation. That's quarter-century old information. Today's issues requires [sic] today's solutions..."

Sadly, your comment reminds me of an old saying, "People who forget the lessons of the past are destined to repeat them." Might I suggest that you/the Board should keep in mind not only the present, but also the past, if it wants to have a more balanced and nuanced understanding of how to best move forward on these matters of tremendous interest to all IBOs.

As for the financial disclosure issue you brought up to Tex between IBOs and tool systems (and going back to my post earlier today regarding the relationship between doctors and patients and lab tests), either we will do so voluntarily as a means of checks and balances against potential abuse of the IBO/upline relationship, or perhaps someday in the not-to-distant future, some government agency or legislative group will force it (or something far worse) on us -- and that won't be nearly as easy to deal with as voluntary disclosure earlier on would have been. Transparency has a power far beyond what you would think it has at first glance, particularly in terms of building deep-seated trust and confidence within relationships. These IBOAI and Opportunity Zone blogs are a good example, as I believe time will show.

Thanks for the dialogue. Much appreciated.

Chuck

[Moderator: Good points!]

Utah

Thank you for the links:
http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/07/03/Business-Transformation.aspx
http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/07/05/Clarification-to-Transformation-Post.aspx

I have recently read them, as they are one of the only things I have read about the global Business Transformation. They are not specific other than bonuses. What about product movement, etc. What are the big changes that are required to move Quixtar back to Amway?

My question was:

Where was my copy of the notice. Since I didn't even know about adatudes until the last couple of weeks, how was I supposed to even know Quixtar was to be come Amway?

There has been no information on the Quixtar Website, I was not sent a letter, it didn't come with any of the catalogs I get, There was no email. The 1st I heard about anything was August 10th.

I would think after 16 years, I would atleast get a letter or What's New at Quixtar when I logged in to Quixtar. Nothing.

I want to get the chance to Select Quixtar not Amway. Do I get that option?

[Moderator: We know that there were successive Quixtar emails on this subject down to the Platinum level, and your upline was supposed to inform you. The decision re the global branding of the whole company as Amway was made by the families who own the company, it wasn't made at the Quixtar level. You are not alone in being concerned about it, but at the same time we have received information that assures us that the business will have ABSOLUTELY no relationship to the company with the Amway name of the 20th century. What ultimately makes a great business are the people, not the name. People engaged in unethical business practices give any brand a bad name, and people engaged in the finest traditions of this company, the principles on which it was founded, will give any brand a good name. ]

Dwight Spaulding

Hello Moderator,

I just read your comment to Utah: "You are not alone in being concerned about it, but at the same time we have received information that assures us that the business will have ABSOLUTELY no relationship to the company with the Amway name of the 20th century."

Can you explain that sentence, it is kind of confusing. I don't have a problem going back to the Amway name, but the wording on that one sounds like saying 'Black isn't Black, it's Black."

Thanks!

[Moderator: C'mon Dwight, you know that Amway in North America was fundamentally a different company, starting at its core -- it wasn't Internet-centered. As much as people laugh at it, what's called AT&T today isn't remotely like what it was before its break-up, either. Companies do go through re-inventing themselves pretty routinely. Doug D, Rich V and Jim Payne all just made a tour of the country, hosting town meetings with IBOs. They report that they heard LOUD AND CLEAR how most IBOs feel about the worldwide use of the Amway name being part of the Global Business Transformation, and most of them felt like you do. Will this prompt any additional action from them? That's a good question for the Quixtar Blogs.]


Tex

I was never informed by my upline of the name change, either. I doubt Utah and I are alone on this, I'll bet 47 of the remaining 48 states also didn't know. :-)

Even though Quixtar put a reference to the adatudes blogs on the inside cover of a recent Achieve magazine, I have always been of the opinion that was not enough. They should have made the blogs and the news much more visible.

However, in the calculating world of public/IBO opinion, they knew there would be a backlash, and they had to determine how to minimize the negative feedback and probably made the correct choice.

Chuck - thanks. That's what I meant to say.

My point is the problem has never been fixed. The list of "road kill" lawsuits over the past 10 or so years (and there were probably more that preceeded the internet, and for this reason are not available) include the Morrison group, the TIF group (both of these involved 15-20 Diamond and Emerald groups), Kenny Stewart, Bruce Anderson, and Brig Hart. ALL of these cases were based on the massive tool profits, so just because Rich said it 24 years ago doesn't make it not applicable. You can google amway/quixtar/xyz group from above and read about these tool profit grabbing disasters. It's broke. We need transparency. I saw Ron Simmons and Chuck Goetchel (sp?) state on the freetheibo site the corp didn't want them to disclose tool income. Two questions arise from this:

1. This didn't prevent the tool companies from lowering prices and making less from tools, did it?

2. Did the corp also prevent the upline from saying the corp was behind the non-disclosure policy, and to make up some other lame excuse? If so, the corp is in some very deep doo doo.

[Moderator 2 Comment: Speaking of transparency, I wonder who's behind all the spamming comments I see in the blogosphere and forums sending readers to Team's PR spin site, the freetheibo forums. They don't make a comment or further the dialog, rather they highjack you through a link where all you see is spin. What does that say about their integrity?]

Tex

Moderator,

Dwight asked a reasonable question.

The general nature of the "new" Amway without any details could be taken in many ways. There has been blog talk about moving into retail stores, such as what Avon did, and what Amway had to do to enter the China market.

We already went through the internet transition with the change from Amway to Quixtar, and it isn't reasonable to me the corp would abandon the internet in going back to Amway. I also think most of the general public would expect to see Amway on the internet, even if they never heard of Quixtar.

The reason I like the change back to the Amway name, besides the single world-wide name, is I feel the business will have to be "squeaky clean" in order to survive in the U.S., which is fine with me.

[Moderator: Tex, glad to hear you're OK with the name thing and we can safely predict that you will be hearing a lot more detail about the proposed global business transformation in the very near future.]

Caroline

Remind me again what you do for my 8,91$? I am starting to think it is better spent on a movie this year.

We 300k+ ibo means Quixtar gets another 27000$ on IBOAI monies.

Utah

I never signed up for the Achieve magazine, hence why I didn't know about adatudes blog. I figured everything would be at quixtar.com.

I did find the June 5th letter. I don't know if I posted the link.
http://amwaynews.alticorblogs.com/
under June 14th.

I did find out something tonight. The SA8 Bioquest that I use is still rated the best from a consumer magazine with a good rep. I was surprised to know that they figure SA8 was twice the cost of the other guys. I wasn't surprised that SA8 was beter. 16 years of using it, it is good stuff. Several years ago, SA8 was less per load. I didn't realize it is more, but I get it at IBO price.

Tex

Moderator 2,

Regarding your transparency comment, not only does the freetheibo forum do all the things you describe, they delete your comments and "ban" you from their site. I know, both of these have happened to me.

They are so incestuous in their fervent worship of the TEAM leaders, they don't care what anyone else thinks, even when they are presented with facts counter to their "religion". They have set themselves up for a very hard fall.

I am not exaggerating when I say I would be concerned for my physical safety if I were an IBOAI Board member or high level corporate employee.

Given all the above, I am still looking for answers to the 2 questions in my previous note.

Utah,

The SA8 review/rating process was flawed. Since they were using hard water and the SA8 said to use double the amount for hard water, it became twice as expensive to use. The other brands are silent on the hard water issue, so they used the regular amount. The consumer magazine didn't use less SA8 or more of the other detergents to see what would happen in these cases, so the study is inconclusive.

I sent them an e-mail pointing out these facts, and they sent me a "smiley-face, thanks for your input" e-mail in return.

pvbvguy

I'm excited about the transformation and believe that Quixtar, the DeVos and VanAndel families and the IBO's will make it great. They have already stepped up to the plate with 60 million in new compensation, there is a great first circle initiative under way, new products are on the way and I think there is huge opportunity here.

What we may be seeing with the whole team thing is the corporation standing up and saying if there are violations we will deal with it. I don't know if that is the case or not and time will tell. If it is the case I'm glad to see them dealing with it.

I know one thing that has hurt this business and it's reputation is a lack of transparency. I believe transparency will sell in the market place in a big way.

amazed

In regard to Tex's statement about the freetheibo blog; the reason they banned you and deleted your posts was due to the fact that you made some rude comments to some of the other bloggers.
Some bloggers, including myself, would have rather seen the rude comments removed and you being given up to three warnings before banning.

Blogs, like this one, have their purpose, but respecting others does need to be a priority.

Regardless of the outcome from all the changes happening, I wish everyone success. It is unfortunate that I can no longer respect the decisions of the board or the corporation; which doesn't mean that I don't respect the people... just not the decisions.

Tex

Amazed,

There were plenty of rude comments from pro-TEAM folks as well. Bottom line is they never answered the questions. Specifically, Ron Simmons and Chuck Goetschel stated Quixtar told them not to disclose tool profits, and Ron and Chuck didn't want to answer follow-on questions.

Also, I wasn't warned 3 times. However, it wouldn't have mattered, because it is clear Ron and Chuck don't want to answer the questions, because they need the tool income for their next gig. There is NOTHING holding them back from telling the truth about tool profits as other former Emeralds and above have done, except for their own personal greed.

I respect people who respectfully answer respectful answers. Ron and Chuck could have, but they haven't yet.

Regardless of the outcome from all the changes happening, I wish everyone success that doesn't lie or cheat. For those who do, I wish the weight of the entire judicial system come down on you. If this fails, I believe you will still have to meet your Maker and answer questions in that forum, without the advice of an attorney or the protection of the Fifth Amendment. It is unfortunate that I can no longer respect the decisions of the board or the corporation until they start to tell the truth; which means that I don't respect the people... because of the bad the decisions.

pvbvguy

I believe that the board is going to have a great year. I believe the company and the board will work together in a much more positive atmosphere because the malcontents with team are gone. I believe the company and the field know that they need each other.

If you read the lawsuit that team has brought, it is obvious they had planned to leave for a long time. The idea that this was a spur of the moment decision is absurd. There is still some ulterior motive that the team guys had for leaving. If it was to protect their system and the mega-incomes some of the leaders were making, then I'm glad they're gone.

If team was running a system that would endanger this business, then it is about time the company took action. All I can say is it's about time.

I trust the IBOAI and Quixtar. I'm not sure about team or the motivation of their leaders. I know this, their motivation to do what they're doing isn't as pure as they want to make it sound.

Their lawsuit wants to bring this whole business to it's knees and I'm sure they'd be happy to scoop up some more people and plug them into their training and further pad their pockets.

IBOAI and Quixtar aren't perfect but I'm going to believe in them vs. the team leadership.

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